Post by Cain Ellatar on Sept 7, 2006 12:29:39 GMT -5
(I posted this as opposed to PM just so any other Warhammer 40k geeks could add on....if they wanted....)
Okay then. Lesse, what to address. Oh right, Ulthwe!
S'alright then, like we were discussing. In order to get through to the seer council to begin with and fight them with your bloodthirster, you'd have to cut through the black guardians (because the black guardians of Ulthwe are stronger than normal guardians yet cost the same.)
Problem is, each squad will have itself either haywire grenades or, more likely, a warlock with a witch blade. Since the automatically hit when you try to tank shock them out of the way, haywires glance on a 2-5 and penetrate on a 6, so alone they have their chance to stop the tank in it's tracks. Witchblades, the preferable one, give the warlock S9 against the tank, so it glances on a 2 and penetrates on a 3+, which drastically drops your chances of actually breaking through, as even if the witchblade doesn't kill the tank, it forces you to disembark immediately with ANY penetrating hit and test for pinning. As you aren't a greater demon yet, you can still be pinned. If the vehicle is destroyed, however, supposing you don't die from it in the process, you are automatically "entangled", which means pinned without any check, giving the seer council ample time to snipe your heroes with mind war and eldritch storm, as they all have ghosthelms and thus can use both powers. As for leadership in the death of glory, the generic warlock power "embolden" lets them re-roll the morale check, thus almost assuring they will succeed. Even if there is no death of glory attempt, the squad can simply fall back and still force the Greater Demon to fight that squad before the seer council.
Bearing in mind that either by mind war or getting blown up in the tank, if your hero for possession dies and thus immediately turns into the bloodthirster, he has to start taking his "demonic instability" tests, where he rolls 3D6 every turn and loses a wound for every point he fails by. With 9 being the average on 3D6, that's a fairly decent chance he could just die the next turn from demonic instability.
Let's say, perhaps, that you don't have to worry about tank shock and for whatever reason there is no guardian support (heavy weapons cleared you a path/ they are busy fighting berserkers). You drop in front of them, you assault them. Those same ghost helms that were giving the farseer's double use of powers now has just halved your WS, so you are down to 5, while one of the warlocks has given the entire squad +1I and +1WS, making it so the farseers in the seer council are at WS6 and I5; in both cases being higher than the bloodthirster. The warlocks all also have WS5 and I5, making them faster and with the same WS. Also, regardless of your toughness, their witchblades still wound you on a 2+ while at the same time you've just lost your ability to kill them outright, as every farseer and warlock has a 4+ invulnerable save that can be re-rolled (thanks to the power "fortune").
Let's also examine points. A lord/bloodthirster alone without any equipment, such as items to give him a greater chance of being possessed, costs 265 points. A farseer costs 40 and warlocks cost 11 each, with an infinite number available in the one squad. Base point costs put you waaay overmatched. This is not including costs for psychic powers just like it isn't including the lord's retinue or cost of transport. Problem is, you lose the bloodthirster as easily as you usually do against Ulthwe, that has just cut out a huge chunk of points from your army, putting you at a greater disadvantage still.
Overall, the point is: They wouldn't ban an army from tournaments unless it really could pwn all other armies, which Ulthwe most definitely can.
If it could be so easily beaten, as lots of chaos players use Khorne, then it would still be tournament legal.
Okay then. Lesse, what to address. Oh right, Ulthwe!
S'alright then, like we were discussing. In order to get through to the seer council to begin with and fight them with your bloodthirster, you'd have to cut through the black guardians (because the black guardians of Ulthwe are stronger than normal guardians yet cost the same.)
Problem is, each squad will have itself either haywire grenades or, more likely, a warlock with a witch blade. Since the automatically hit when you try to tank shock them out of the way, haywires glance on a 2-5 and penetrate on a 6, so alone they have their chance to stop the tank in it's tracks. Witchblades, the preferable one, give the warlock S9 against the tank, so it glances on a 2 and penetrates on a 3+, which drastically drops your chances of actually breaking through, as even if the witchblade doesn't kill the tank, it forces you to disembark immediately with ANY penetrating hit and test for pinning. As you aren't a greater demon yet, you can still be pinned. If the vehicle is destroyed, however, supposing you don't die from it in the process, you are automatically "entangled", which means pinned without any check, giving the seer council ample time to snipe your heroes with mind war and eldritch storm, as they all have ghosthelms and thus can use both powers. As for leadership in the death of glory, the generic warlock power "embolden" lets them re-roll the morale check, thus almost assuring they will succeed. Even if there is no death of glory attempt, the squad can simply fall back and still force the Greater Demon to fight that squad before the seer council.
Bearing in mind that either by mind war or getting blown up in the tank, if your hero for possession dies and thus immediately turns into the bloodthirster, he has to start taking his "demonic instability" tests, where he rolls 3D6 every turn and loses a wound for every point he fails by. With 9 being the average on 3D6, that's a fairly decent chance he could just die the next turn from demonic instability.
Let's say, perhaps, that you don't have to worry about tank shock and for whatever reason there is no guardian support (heavy weapons cleared you a path/ they are busy fighting berserkers). You drop in front of them, you assault them. Those same ghost helms that were giving the farseer's double use of powers now has just halved your WS, so you are down to 5, while one of the warlocks has given the entire squad +1I and +1WS, making it so the farseers in the seer council are at WS6 and I5; in both cases being higher than the bloodthirster. The warlocks all also have WS5 and I5, making them faster and with the same WS. Also, regardless of your toughness, their witchblades still wound you on a 2+ while at the same time you've just lost your ability to kill them outright, as every farseer and warlock has a 4+ invulnerable save that can be re-rolled (thanks to the power "fortune").
Let's also examine points. A lord/bloodthirster alone without any equipment, such as items to give him a greater chance of being possessed, costs 265 points. A farseer costs 40 and warlocks cost 11 each, with an infinite number available in the one squad. Base point costs put you waaay overmatched. This is not including costs for psychic powers just like it isn't including the lord's retinue or cost of transport. Problem is, you lose the bloodthirster as easily as you usually do against Ulthwe, that has just cut out a huge chunk of points from your army, putting you at a greater disadvantage still.
Overall, the point is: They wouldn't ban an army from tournaments unless it really could pwn all other armies, which Ulthwe most definitely can.
If it could be so easily beaten, as lots of chaos players use Khorne, then it would still be tournament legal.
